I think that’s actually an important part of the discussion that I didn’t mention.
If you accept my basic premise about this whole thing, Canto/HK folks didn’t like dumplings (jiao zi), so ordering jiao zi at a Canto place wasn’t a good idea b/c it probably wouldn’t taste very good. Sort of like the idea of ordering a NY pizza place at a French restaurant. I’m sure they have the technical know-how, but do they care about making it taste “right?”
Which is why I also brought up Mama Lu’s. If the big dim sum places are getting their XLB from Mama Lu’s, then, yes, there is functionally not a reason to NOT get XLB while having dim sum since it’ll taste just fine.
When Yank Sing started selling XLB I read in the paper that they hired a specialist from Hong Kong. Where as I said I believe the trend of putting XLB on dim sum menus started.
the confusion is that hargow, or xia jiao, shares the term ‘jiao’ with jiaozi, so the translation to shrimp dumpling for hargow is consistent with ‘jiao’ food items being translated as ____-dumpling. but beef dumpling is not in any way a literal translation of shuimai, which doesn’t contain the term ‘jiao’ in chinese, but presumably out of convenience it got translated as another type of ‘dumpling’. likewise, soup dumpling is not in any way a literal translation of xiaolongbao, and if one were being consistent with that format of translation, charsiu bao would more aptly be referred to as charsiu dumpling.
just because some chinese restaurants haphazardly grouped some set of stuffing-filled dough items under the term ‘____-dumpling’ for ease of translation doesn’t mean those terms have to be abided by everyone.
It wasn’t some Chinese restaurants or haphazard. Every dim sum place I’ve ever been to or read a menu of called har gao shrimp dumplings.
In English, one kind of dumpling is something wrapped in pasta and steamed, boiled, or fried, so char siu and xiao long bao both fit that.
From an English-speaking perspective it seems unintuitive that XLB, which are filled pasta, are called bao, since bao are usually buns, which in English means bread rather than pasta. But obviously Romance and Chinese languages don’t map one to one at all.
This discussion takes me way back to that epic chowhound thread where someone called xlb = dumplings and @ipsedixit and a few others got very heated. One of my favorites as I learned so much. Second only to the “ you’re not an OG of Mexican food if…” thread.
And I think that’s really one of the main points. There’s the word itself and how it is (or isn’t) in the Chinese name and then how the item “eats” (regardless of what it’s called).
So, yes, in English they’re all called “dumplings,” but my taste buds have their own language (which is in part possibly influenced by how my parents would group or discuss these things).
I can understand why someone would call a har gow a dumpling, even though I don’t think it “eats” like a jiao zi dumpling.
But, as @burritoking mentions, I don’t understand the how or why of siu mai being translated as a dumpling (either from the Chinese name itself or in terms of how it “eats”) at all. I’m actually surprised to read here that people consider them dumplings TBH (I’ve never really looked at the English translation since I don’t like them and don’t order them on my own).
I wonder if XLB are a “bao” b/c of the mechanics of how they’re wrapped (seam upright and a piece of food that “stands”) vs. the material (bready vs. wrapper) itself. Jiao zi dumplings just slump over. The literally translation of “bao” is “purse” or “packet,” I think. I can a XLB as being metaphorically like a flled satchel, so, in that sense, it is more bao than a dumpling?
I will say, though, that I never shared @ipsedixit’s passion for distinguishing a XLB vs. a jiao zi dumpling (since the two “eat” very similarly to me).
If (im)precision in language and translation and if culinary cultural and generational evolution aren’t that big a deal to you, then just eat what you like, unless you like putting ketchup on your hot dog (literally).
First, let me say that I love all types of dumplings and “dumplings.” I agree, that back in the day, you wouldn’t see XLB, jiaozi, guotie on dim sum menus. But what’s funny to me is XLB is clearly not a dumpling (it’s a bao), and xiu mai is not a dumpling (because it’s open, imo). Yet, I guess a har gow could technically be a dumpling since the to me “gow” or “jiao” means dumpling. Not sure what that all means in the grand scheme - it could simply mean I’ve got all my Chinglish messed up, but interesting debate nonetheless!
Genuine answer: because xlb = xiao long bao That’s at least why for me a har gow or shia jiao is a dumpling because at least in my world of Chinese, “gow” or “jiao” means dumpling.
In English, one definition of dumpling is a filled pasta. That’s why when XLB appeared in the US, English menus called them “soup dumplings.”
The concept of “dumpling” is much narrower in Chinese than in English, so trying to impose the Chinese concept on an English translation is going to lead to nonsensical statements.
then you will say things that people won’t understand, or that make no sense.
I didn’t say that, I said I’m completely confused.
I go to war with people about what Is the difference between lox and smoked salmon. Or what makes a bagel a bagel.
Btw, those blobs of dough in the version of chicken and dumplings you had, are not dumplings to many in the south. To them dumplings are flat and more noodle like. Those were soggy drop bIscuits you had. Wait? What’s a matzoh ball?
And people from Chicago complain about ketchup on a hotdog yet they serve their hotdog with tomatoes, peppers, celery salt, etc all components of ketchup. So it’s OK to put deconstructed ketchup on a hotdog!
If you simmer lumps of biscuit dough in soup or stew, they’re dumplings, even if some people in some places would call them biscuits (I’ve never encountered that myself).
Southern “slick dumplings” are big thick noodles but they call them dumplings anyway.
A matzoh ball is also a dumpling, similar to the many varieties of German bread dumplings.
Gnocchi are dumplings, except for gnocchi alla romana, which I guess you could call a semolina gratin.
to me, dumplings are made with a flour based wrapper. rice is the cantonese staple crop so most dim sum are made with rice or rice flour. wonton would be an exception, but then wonton are also not unique to cantonese regional cuisine, though cantonese wonton are probably the most familiar. but wonton are distinctly not considered jiaoxi. and i kinda consider siu mai to be an adaptation of wonton in terms of wrapper and filling.
